Friday, July 04, 2008

Oh, how I miss ETB!

Happy Fourth of July to all my Amicus friends. Another friend passed along this quote from Ezra Taft Benson from General Conference, October 1961...and I thought I'd share:

In the war in heaven the devil advocated absolute eternal security at the sacrifice of our freedom. Although there is nothing more desirable to a Latter-day Saint than eternal security in God's presence, and although God knew, as did we, that some of us would not achieve this security if we were allowed our freedom—yet the very God of heaven, who has more mercy than us all, still decreed no guaranteed security except by a man's own freedom of choice and individual initiative.

Today the devil as a wolf in a supposedly new suit of sheep's clothing is enticing some men, both in and out of the Church, to parrot his line by advocating planned government guaranteed security programs at the expense of our liberties. Latter-day Saints should be reminded how and why they voted as they did in heaven. If some have decided to change their vote they should repent—throw their support on the side of freedom—and cease promoting this subversion...

...No true Latter-day Saint and no true American can be a socialist or a communist or support programs leading in that direction. These evil philosophies are incompatible with Mormonism, the true gospel of Jesus Christ
.

What do "true" Latter-day Saints and "true" Americans believe today? And which presidential candidate would a "true" either-of-them vote for...McCain or Obama? (Be careful...it's a trick question!)

29 comments:

Anonymous said...

I know this is some trick question, but from where I sit, it has to be McCain.

Anonymous said...

Interesting post, but I don't think we should be basing our votes on fables about god, the devil, and The War in Heaven.

We need to focus on improving economic productivity, improving education outcomes (none of this we-aren't-spending-enough-on-education-BS), reducing our budget and trade deficit, reducing our dependence on imported energy which includes conservation, alternative fuels, and increased domestic production, and making government more efficient.

All this ETB mumbo-jumbo isn't going to get us very far.

Anonymous said...

If you and many others miss ETB so much, why doesn't "God" tell the current "prophet" to talk like ETB. You know, something like "homo marriage will lead to higher tax burdens and lower economic growth".

Anonymous said...

Wow, you strike me as full of hate and intolerance. It's funny that we are all to be so tolerant of others....Unless they disagree with the left. Then, hate seems an entirely appropriate response.

Anonymous said...

You equate disagreement with hate and intolerance, but only if the disagreement is about religion.

If I had used similar language and terminology about someone's position on economics, national defense, energy, education, etc., you would have either agreed with me or disagreed with me while stating the reasons why. Instead you play the hate-and-intolerance card. Nice.

Anonymous said...

I would never play the "hate-and-intolerance" card in any discussion. And certainly would not agree or disagree with such language. I simply condemn it, regardless of the topics it is addressing.

Regardless, it is repugnant to engage in such language, even if it has to do with religion or any other topic of discussion. It shows a lack of thoughtfulness on your part. In America all parties involved have the right to be heard, even if one of those parties is a religious group.

I didn't play the hate card. I simply pointed the card out in your hand. If you don't like playing it, throw it away. And begin to engage in thoughtful, meaningful debate.

Anonymous said...

Did I say that all parties did not have the "right" to be heard? I never said such things. I just pointed out the irrationality of quoting ETB.

If ETB quotes become a basis for discussion, what about some alleged quotes from a pagan Celtic god or the Great Spirit of some Native American tribe?

I propose that we base our discussions on facts, not fables.

Anonymous said...

No, your point is to tear down the beliefs of others. There is no irrationality in quoting a modern Mormon prophet. Nor is it irrational to quote another spiritual leader.

It is, however, completely inappropriate to spew hateful rhetoric if you would like to disagree.

If you don't like the basis of the discussion, say so. Or, don't participate. It is much more impactful than being hateful.

By the way, I am simply giggling at your statement:

"Did I say that all parties did not have the "right" to be heard? I never said such things. I just pointed out the irrationality of quoting ETB."

The contradictory nature of your words is really funny!

bekkieann said...

"No true Latter-day Saint and no true American can be a socialist or a communist or support programs leading in that direction."

So we should oppose social programs that help people who need help, but corporate welfare is okay, right? Typical of Mero, ETB, and other like-minded to use labels like "socialism" to scare people into voting against their consciences and their own best interests. I suppose the more righteous among us prefer sending our money to big oil, the military-industrial complex, financial bailouts, etc. But nothing for the less fortunate.

Yes, I know the importance of corporate health for a good economy. But it's not an either/or situation. I wonder, what would Jesus do?

Anonymous said...

Jesus oppossed theft you nutcake. Tell me, why is it that you like the government taking money from your pocket (by threat of arrest) and then giving it to someone else? WHile you call this welfare, it is nothing of the sort. Charity can NEVER be compelled, or it is not charity. Wake up you marxist!

Anonymous said...

Plus, it seems that those "evil" corporations are the ones paying the vast majority of the income tax. By the way, did I miss something, or was Enron allowed to fail?

Bear-Stearns was saved as to avoid calling all of the mortgages that collateralized its debts. Should we have allowed that? And, it was saved primarily in the private sector, using the Fed simply for a bridge loan that will be fully repaid.

The fact is, communism doesn't work. This is no secret. The closer we come to it, the less efficient we become.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:13,

You can giggle all you want, but your giggling doesn't refute my points. Again, I don't deny anyone the right to quote fables and "prophets". I just question the rationality of it.

If you can quote Mormon prophets should I start quoting fables from Hindu prophets?

Why don't we ask what (the) Buddha and the Great Spirit would do?

Has anyone asked what Bob Seger would do? At least Seger had some decent songs (Main Street, Her Strut, Against the Wind). ETB and Jesus can even claim that.

We should be more concerned about what Robert Rubin, Milton Friedman, Larry Summers, Robert Reich think and would do.

Anonymous said...

You question the rationality of it through hateful commentary. This is my point. It's sad.

As I pointed out. Please quote any spiritual, or any other leader you like. And rest assured that I will not spew hate as a response.

Anonymous said...

Dude...Segar sucks!

Anonymous said...

Who killed the electric car?

Wayne Holland Jr.

Anonymous said...

Seger sucks? Stop listening to Miley Cyrus and Britney Spears and expand your horizons.

Anonymous said...

OK Jerk off, what DID Milton Friedman say about socialism??? Exactly!

Anonymous said...

Jean Welch Hill?

needs a hair cut.

Jeremy said...

The comments in this post are a great argument for abolishing anonymous commenting on this blog.

Pathetic.

Anonymous said...

Rhe simple answer to the trick question is that Bob Barr, the Libertarian candidate is the only one who fits the guidelines

Anonymous said...

The theocon and libertarian disparager Paul Mero doesn't have much credibility quoting Ezra Taft Benson and invoking the War in Heaven when his social tyranny advocacy organization -- The Sutherland Institute -- works under the guise of exalting the "family as the fundamental unit of society" to fill the State of Utah's prisons with those who possess, produce, or promote erotic photographs, movies, videos, music, or reading material (House Bill 260, 2005).

The message from erotica that Mero & Company want censored: "Make Love, Not War."

SLC Mama said...

At first I thought he was talking about Republican defense spending. Take out the last paragraph about socialists and the like, and it could be about our obsessive need for killing all middle-easterners before they kill us . . .

fred thompson said...

Or he could be talking about Obama's socialist plans.

SLC Mama said...

Obama's too much of a centrist to be a socialist.

Frank Staheli said...

It's hard to claim to know who a President of the LDS Church would (have) vote(d) for, considering that the Church always advocates political neutrality. However, reading the quote from Benson's speech, I think that neither Obama nor McCain come anywhere close to filling what Benson states are the requirements for public office. In varying degrees Obama and McCain BOTH advocate usurping our liberties. While Obama would be worse in this regard, McCain would ride with the same heinous imperialism that has plagued the GW Bush administration for the last 8 years.

Neither is a good candidate. Ron Paul was a great candidate, but we exited the race when too many people pigeonholed themselves into the Orwellian 1984 scenario of false alternatives.

With Ron Paul having stepped down, the best remaining candidate is Bob Barr. He understands liberty in the mode of Benson and the Founding Fathers.

Anonymous said...

OH MY! did you just say Obama is a centrist? Ma'am you need to wake up. Obama is a Liberal Fascist! He is the complete return of Karl Marx. God help us if you think he is a centrist. Only a full blown member of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party would consider Obama a "centrist."

SLC Mama said...

Umm, anon -- hello? Anyone home? Only in Utah would anyone left of far right be called a liberal fascist

Obama's economic advisers are called the Chicago Boys. Obama himself said that he loves the "free market" and has a big Wal-mart fan (Jason Furman -- who also wants the SS private accounts, just like Bush) on his economic team. That's a definite far cry from the left.

We on the left have folks like Ralph Nader, Dennis Kucinich and Cynthia McKinney. So you can get some perspective of what really is left, you might want to check out their positions.

Obama is center because while he has some liberal values, he has several on right, including the willingness to continue funding the Iraq war.

SLC Mama said...

Oh, and liberal and fascist are opposite terms. Fascism is a movement of the far right. It's equivalent on the far left was communism. But if you think Obama is far left, you may not understand the distinction.

Anonymous said...

SLC Mama,

Your an idiot. You know nothing of history, nor could you tell me the difference between facisim, nazism and communism. Liberal facsism is when a liberal decides to force through government their goofy ideals. Example, forced medical insurance-Liberal facism, Seatbelt laws-Liberal facism, get it? Probably not