tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post2176616501092869166..comments2023-10-25T04:06:39.650-06:00Comments on THE UTAH AMICUS: REFERENDUM 1, WRONG FOR UTAHRobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15268367840057258095noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-20716664322382206502007-11-05T16:21:00.000-07:002007-11-05T16:21:00.000-07:00Can someone tell me where the money is coming from...Can someone tell me where the money is coming from? <BR/><BR/>According to the Lt. Governor's office this should cost the state $5.5 million the first year and increase each year up to $71 million a year after the 13th year. Of course, they also say that the "school districts statewide will together save: $2.4 - 11.5 million during the Program's first year; and $11 - $28 million during the Program's 13th year". That still leaves a $43 million difference the 13th year and every year after that.<BR/><BR/>Do we really have that amount of money floating around that we can give to private organizations? If we do, why isn't it being used to improve the system that is already in place?<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure what my vote will be but if someone could please answer those questions I would appreciate it.<BR/><BR/>Also, if this is really to help those who can't already afford to send kids to private school than why are we going to give money to someone with 1 child who is already making over $150,000 a year? Will $500 really make that big of a difference to those people? Why not set a limit and increase the amounts given to lower-income families?<BR/><BR/>Again, I'm not arguing for either side because I don't know how I will vote but those two things keep coming up in my mind. Answers would be appreciated. Thanks.Ivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18330907888832706289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-39265673194147135612007-11-04T15:37:00.000-07:002007-11-04T15:37:00.000-07:00I haven't read every single comment, so sorry if s...I haven't read every single comment, so sorry if someone already posted this link. This is an impartial breakdown of referendum 1, which I found very informative:<BR/><BR/>http://le.utah.gov/lrgc/impartial.pdfalisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578706183414099018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-67364027293916985352007-11-03T23:05:00.000-06:002007-11-03T23:05:00.000-06:00Vote no to Referendum 1, Why: Private Schools have...Vote no to Referendum 1, <BR/>Why: Private Schools have no accountability,<BR/>Money will be taken out of Public Schools,<BR/>It causes segregation,<BR/>The difference between the rich and the poor will increase,<BR/>The middle class will suffer and decrease in size,<BR/>Vouchers give tax money back to parents that send their kids to Private Schools but people with no kids in school get no money back it is unfair and unjust,<BR/>Vouchers will be giving money to the many Church schools thus there will be no separation between church and state,<BR/>Schools for money are what the Voucher program creates, look at Chile and there is a prime example how vouchers scholarships in grade school are creating a large gap in between the rich and the poor,<BR/>Vouchers will ruin the sports programs that we have in public schools,<BR/>Adds claim that Vouchers will give money to the public schools for the kids that aren't there but how can the school district know who would be there and who would not be there a flaw a loop hole making it so that Public Schools will loose money.SkylerZaleskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15778738875676673098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-9834488287641057672007-11-03T23:03:00.000-06:002007-11-03T23:03:00.000-06:00Vote no to Referendum 1, Why: Private Schools have...Vote no to Referendum 1, <BR/>Why: Private Schools have no accountability,<BR/>Money will be taken out of Public Schools,<BR/>It causes segregation,<BR/>The difference between the rich and the poor will increase,<BR/>The middle class will suffer and decrease in size,<BR/>Vouchers give tax money back to parents that send their kids to Private Schools but people with no kids in school get no money back it is unfair and unjust,<BR/>Vouchers will be giving money to the many Church schools thus there will be no separation between church and state,<BR/>Schools for money are what the Voucher program creates, look at Chile and there is a prime example how vouchers scholarships in grade school are creating a large gap in between the rich and the poor,<BR/>Vouchers will ruin the sports programs that we have in public schools,<BR/>Adds claim that Vouchers will give money to the public schools for the kids that aren't there but how can the school district know who would be there and who would not be there a flaw a loop hole making it so that Public Schools will loose money.SkylerZaleskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15778738875676673098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-34168991711647806202007-11-02T20:48:00.000-06:002007-11-02T20:48:00.000-06:00Personally, I am all for Referendum 1. Maybe when...Personally, I am all for Referendum 1. Maybe when enough people see what it does for the schools and the QUALITY of teaching, they will be for it as well.<BR/><BR/>I think that the school system has problems. Without something to persuade schools, teachers and educators in general, to do and be better the system will continue to be broken. Of course teachers are against it, it might mean they have to teach YOUR children or be replaced by someone that will. I have first hand experience on how poor some teachers are. I had an Algebra teacher that knew nothing of Algebra, yet somehow managed to be "Certified" as a teacher. I don't see how that helps.<BR/><BR/>Those against this Referendum often tout there is no accountability in it. My question is, where is the accountability <B>NOW</B>? With all these tax dollars going toward education and so many recent scandals of people pilfering from these school dollars, why is it that it takes YEARS to notice?<BR/><BR/>The system is broken, and needs to be fixed! I have children of my own, and see that this is a great program. They will stay in Public Schools, but ultimately, I am responsible for the education my children get.<BR/><BR/>I give Referendum 1 a SOLID vote <B>FOR</B>! It gives freedom of choice to parents, not limitation as the current system does.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-36891792350197314492007-11-01T12:28:00.000-06:002007-11-01T12:28:00.000-06:00One of the anonymous posts said that the bill allo...One of the anonymous posts said that the bill allows private schools receiving voucher students to employ teachers with an associates degree.<BR/><BR/>Referring to the requirements for private schools that can be attended, the bill says the schools must<BR/><BR/>"154 (g) employ or contract with teachers who:<BR/>155 (i) hold baccalaureate or higher degrees; or<BR/>156 (ii) have special skills, knowledge, or expertise that qualifies them to provide<BR/>157 instruction in the subjects taught;"<BR/><BR/>It seems pretty clear that a bachelors degree is required. <BR/><BR/>I'm still undecided (but leaning towards voting for it) I just want to be sure no-one makes a decision based on misrepresentations of the facts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-67291362679651950292007-11-01T10:04:00.000-06:002007-11-01T10:04:00.000-06:00This Referendum is horribly flawed! Be sure you re...This Referendum is horribly flawed! Be sure you read every word for yourself before you trust what anyone else is saying about it!!! Both sides are leaving out important information when it is debated! I am voting against it!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-31203151302017856222007-10-30T19:57:00.000-06:002007-10-30T19:57:00.000-06:00"REFERENDUM 1, WRONG FOR UTAH" yes it is ..."REFERENDUM 1, WRONG FOR UTAH"<BR/><BR/> yes it is dumb <BR/>who ever came up with it is dumb<BR/>-----------------------------------<BR/><BR/> *.* i like smileys<BR/> u <BR/> -????? who caresAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-61969547815550391832007-10-30T11:39:00.000-06:002007-10-30T11:39:00.000-06:00Here is a response to the oreo ad: The REAL oreo v...Here is a response to the oreo ad: <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8Kt-i4pmV0" REL="nofollow">The REAL oreo voucher ad</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-44048270135957324962007-10-29T09:38:00.000-06:002007-10-29T09:38:00.000-06:00Fascinating the thought process that goes into thi...Fascinating the thought process that goes into this. Laurel said, "Why? There are a lot of claims that Referendum 1 is wrong, but no evidence."<BR/><BR/>Here are a coulpe of things to ponder before you can say it's good or bad. <BR/><BR/>1. Where is this money coming from to give money back for taking your child out of public schools? (ie. Healthcare, other government programs, etc.)<BR/><BR/>2. Who is behind this bill? What truely is wrong with the way things are going now? I can almost bet that only a handfull of people will leave the school system because of a $3000 voucher. All this seems to do is award those that already have their kids out of school.<BR/><BR/>3. My wife and I don't have any kids, so by us not have kids in public school, are we not entitled to the voucher as well?<BR/><BR/>It appears that this is just another bill that pits the have's against the have not's. <BR/><BR/>I will be voting against this Referendum.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-6526193406801239862007-10-29T00:36:00.000-06:002007-10-29T00:36:00.000-06:00Somebody above asked the question about who I woul...Somebody above asked the question about who I would rather have teach me, a person with a masters degree in teaching or someone with no teaching experience. Hmm... I have yet to see a private school where the teachers do not know what they are teaching. Plenty of idiots and morons get general and teaching degrees and still cannot teach. If you assume that the private school teachers are not qualified simply because they don't hold a college degree, then I would rather have anyone BUT you teach me. -Angry Junior <BR/><BR/>P.S. My dad is a teacher and a union member, but we looked it over and if it doesn't work, we'll vote it down next year. And as for those studies comparing to other states' voucher programs... the programs are nowhere near the same. We came to the conclusion as a family that the studies cannot be trusted to model results for THIS voucher program.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-55211635967047023182007-10-27T21:48:00.000-06:002007-10-27T21:48:00.000-06:00I keep reading these back and forth's about why we...I keep reading these back and forth's about why we SHOULD or SHOULDN'T vote for Referendum1. Some people in here keep talking about letting people have the choice of where to send their children to school. Well here is my problem, you get $3,000 through this for your child to go to private school. Well great, now go and find the other $7,000 ( roughly) you need to actually send your child to school. And suddenly your realize.....this still only helps, who.....the rich. Because the middle class still aren't even CLOSE to being able to afford it. Oh, and we are talking Utah here right. Most people have 2 or 3 or more kids in school. So WITH Referendum1, they still need to come up with $21,000 dollars to put their 3 kids through private school...........FOR ONE YEAR. Not going to happen. So this bill doesn't really give anyone a choice, just the rich a bit more pocket change. I've also heard that each school, or district gets a certain amount of money for each child that LEAVES. Well how much do they get, and how much did they LOOSE when he left. Is there a total net GAIN, or LOSE of money for the school when the student leaves. No one is saying, or they are saying so with wildly varying figures. The pro TV ad states that we have $7,000 per student, and that leaves $4,000 for the school or district, if a student leaves with $3,000 for Referendum1. But the Utah government web site, lists our budget per student as less then $3,000. So which is true??? I'd like to think that this helps our kids have more educational choices. But if you really want to know if it will help the average family, simply go to your nearest private school, or better yet get a sampling of several, solely on their costs per year, and see if $3,000 per child is enough to cover the costs, or even really make it a feasible option. And I mean feasible, in the sense that you don't break the bank and max out your credit cards to do it. Because remember folks, college tuition is right around the corner.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-41409585840754789492007-10-26T17:09:00.000-06:002007-10-26T17:09:00.000-06:00KSL Rejects VouchersFrom The KSL editorial board:T...KSL Rejects Vouchers<BR/><BR/>From The KSL editorial board:<BR/><BR/>The KSL Editorial Board has thoughtfully considered the views presented by opponents and proponents of school vouchers, and has come to the conclusion that a broad taxpayer supported voucher system should not be implemented in Utah.<BR/><BR/>Our opposition to vouchers boils down to a fundamental question: Is Utah's public school system broken and in such disarray that doing something as radical and unproven as directing precious tax dollars toward private schools, many of them parochial, the answer?<BR/><BR/>We think not!<BR/><BR/>It is not a question of school choice since parents already have a variety of options in Utah. Any parent who so chooses can send a child to a private school, or a charter school, or a different public school! School choice is not the issue!<BR/><BR/>A vote against vouchers must not be interpreted as a vote for the status quo. Make no mistake about it, there's plenty of room for improvement. Still, contemplate what could be accomplished if the energy that has been directed at vouchers could be redirected toward implementing reasoned, effective and adequately funded reforms in the tried and tested public school system.<BR/><BR/>In KSL's view, that's where the focus of Utahns ought to be. Let's reject vouchers and work toward making changes that will benefit all Utah children for generations to come.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268367840057258095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-79341204477115978592007-10-26T17:07:00.000-06:002007-10-26T17:07:00.000-06:00To all reading this, please visit my blog. I updat...To all reading this, please visit my blog. I updated my entry and included a video with a KSL segment which debunks ads such as these. It's the second video in the post.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16839590603609056979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-36058320635674277872007-10-26T10:56:00.000-06:002007-10-26T10:56:00.000-06:00Interestingly, I read so many comments about accou...Interestingly, I read so many comments about accountability of private schools being a rationale for not supporting vouchers. In contrast, my experience in having both attended private schools and in observing my mother's position (which is to help find funding for people to attend private schools) is that people have selected private schools year after year because they produce results. They produce better educated children and, the good schools, are nationally and internationally ranked based on RESULTS. <BR/><BR/>Telling parents that they would be hoodwinked by a privte school that didn't offer results is an insult to a parent's intelligence. Any responsible parent willing to research and move their child to another school is doing so because their child is NOT being served in public school. That includes parents using charter schools as well. <BR/><BR/>Parents who are low income still choose private schools if they can find scholarship money based on merit or need. Those do exist. The vouchers are helpful because its a little chunk less that the school has to drum up to accept low income families (which they have been doing for decades already out of pocket). <BR/><BR/>The existence of these vouchers does not place the community at risk of developing BAD private schools and it doesn't rob the schools of any money. In either case, the voucher gives the public school more in replacement of absentee children than it currently gives for those same children. The school currently doesn't receive ANY money for students that don't attend their school. If the voucher passes, the school receives four THOUSAND dollars per student that does NOT attend for FIVE years. That is 20,000 dollars of FREE money to a school per student. The family may only receive 500-3000 dollars. And they have to still pay for the remainder. This reduces class size AND increases funding to the schools. How are schools losing here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-42024610208513422162007-10-26T10:47:00.000-06:002007-10-26T10:47:00.000-06:00I work in the schools; if this law passes the effe...I work in the schools; if this law passes the effect that it will have on our school system throughout Utah is huge. It is going to effect the resources that the students recive and many postion in the district will have to be cut because of funding. The money that would be taken a way is not exactly per person that money is disdriputed evenly to all things that effect the students. This is to much money to be taken away from our public schools. If referdum 1 passes if is going to damage many things in our in our schools throuh out Utah. Many things will be cut and students will not get the attention they deserve Vote NO on refedum1laurenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10149449497817690790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-37229745956415656642007-10-26T00:08:00.000-06:002007-10-26T00:08:00.000-06:00Ben, I had a teacher that really had it out for me...Ben, I had a teacher that really had it out for me. He was demeaning, ill-tempered, and quick to over react. He had a problem with my buddy Al, and that problem transferred over to me, and a couple other guys in that class. <BR/><BR/>One day Mr. Shirley went off on Al. Being a loyal friend, and a speaker of truth I defended Al. The next thing I knew I was sent to the school counselor, Mr. Goatees. Mr. Shirley wanted me suspended and out of his class. He made it out that I was a danger to society (maybe he was right). <BR/><BR/>The only thing that helped me through that moment, because it was tough, was the knowledge that speaking the truth was worth any punishment Mr. Shirley could dish out. <BR/><BR/>In retrospect, I guess that I would have loved to see Mr. Shirley canned for what I felt was misconduct. But, the truth is, a majority of the kids he taught carry great memories of Mr. Shirley. <BR/><BR/>Sometimes people just don't get along, even at private schools.<BR/><BR/>I agree, if a teacher that doesn't cut the mustard, they should be held accountable. But it doesn't take long for a good school administrator to recognize a problem. I also understand that this world truly has a problem with demonizing others that we don't like, or are angry with. It is becoming harder and harder to forgive each other's shortcomings. People get fired unjustly, everyday. Old friends never speak again. <BR/><BR/>Very often we say terrible things about each other out of selfishness, or profit. <BR/><BR/>There is a lot we can do with the system we have already. I spent an hour speaking to 75 students at a local charter school. I was so impressed with what I saw. <BR/><BR/>The other barrier we need to climb is teachers salaries. This one step will greatly improve what is already a pretty great community education system despite the lack of support over the last twenty years by the Republican lead legislature. <BR/><BR/>There are other steps, but first we need to vote down Referendum 1.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-43040612782872116042007-10-25T23:13:00.000-06:002007-10-25T23:13:00.000-06:00I know a number of public school teachers who say ...I know a number of public school teachers who say it's nearly impossible to fire a bad teacher. Bad teachers just get transferred to another district. The teachers unions protect bad teachers. Vouchers will give parents the ability to empty the classrooms of bad teachers. Poor kids should get more like 7K so they have equal opportunity to switch to a private school if their public school is under-performing.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12188393033852349274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-81861659993680046522007-10-25T17:18:00.000-06:002007-10-25T17:18:00.000-06:00"How is Referendum 1 suppose to help those of us i..."How is Referendum 1 suppose to help those of us in rural areas? Even if we wanted to use the voucher we do not have access to private schools. It will do nothing to lower class sizes in rural areas!"<BR/><BR/>This program won't help me. Everything is all about me. So let's penalize the rest of the community.<BR/><BR/>"As a mom who has had her child in "private" school and pulled him out, I say very strongly VOTE NO! I had the choice of a "public" teacher with a double masters degree or a "private" school teacher that was a high school graduate."<BR/><BR/>Capitalism working it's magic here. A concerned parent having a choice, and being able to take her business away from a poorly run institution. Clearly another sign to vote no.<BR/><BR/>The beauty of the private school industry. You have the ability to send your child to a school that meets your expectations. If they fail to meet your needs you take your child out along with your money to one that does. If the instructors aren't qualified enough for you, who do you have to blame? Take a look in the mirror.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-68604048294445301072007-10-25T14:44:00.000-06:002007-10-25T14:44:00.000-06:00Ben, you really don't have a clue, do you?Ben, you really don't have a clue, do you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-10433277138353266092007-10-25T11:31:00.000-06:002007-10-25T11:31:00.000-06:00About Ref 1 lowering class sizes...When a school's...About Ref 1 lowering class sizes...When a school's numbers drop, so do their allocated <BR/>FTEs (Full-time educators). In other words, as class sizes are reduced because of falling numbers, then teachers are pulled from the school and are "surplused." So, how exactly does Ref 1 lower class size?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-32235095156270140492007-10-25T10:37:00.000-06:002007-10-25T10:37:00.000-06:00Parents should be the ones who decide where public...Parents should be the ones who decide where public education funds will be spent. The UEA and NEA oppose vouchers because they don't want to be accountable to parents. Under the voucher system, bad teachers will lose their jobs rather than being transferred to another district. Teachers and schools will have to continually improve to keep their funding. The end result will be better schools for our kids. How can anyone oppose that?Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12188393033852349274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-27605503813926245512007-10-25T10:06:00.000-06:002007-10-25T10:06:00.000-06:00Please click on my name go to my blog and watch th...Please click on my name go to my blog and watch the video. It is a little long, but VERY informative and shows why we SHOULD be for Referendum One. Competition among schools is GOOD. It weeds out the bad ones and encourages the good ones to do better.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16839590603609056979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-20010099639353588772007-10-24T22:30:00.000-06:002007-10-24T22:30:00.000-06:00Okay, here is a 24 year old college student with n...Okay, here is a 24 year old college student with no kids. One who will probably not have any kids in the public school system for a good 5 years. The only reason I'm researching referendum 1 is for a project at school. So I beleive I have an unbiast opinion. I SAY YES to referendum 1. Why? The $7500/student that is currently allocated to students is not going to change. So all the uninformed people whinning about having to fork more money out can stop. I found nothing in my research that proves any hinderance to the public school system. Those that are againts the housebill 148 say it largely lacks accountability. The accountable parties will be the parents as it will be their desicions as to where to give their children private education. There is a larger contextual issue at hand that is the tense economy. An alternate solution that would have the same positive effect as referendum 1 will cause a large tax hike and put a very dangerous pressure on the current Utah economy. If I were a betting man I would bet that have the comments on here are of very uninformed people that allowed their emotions to be taken by superficial propaganda. Dig deep folks. Its important right? Its your children! C'mon! Vote YES for REFERENDUM 1!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21680780.post-76514114392961419532007-10-24T18:09:00.000-06:002007-10-24T18:09:00.000-06:00I do not want my tax dollar going to a private bus...I do not want my tax dollar going to a private business. Give me my tax money back so I can go to Disneyland with my poor family. And then take all of those Oreo cookies and crunch them up and feed it to the birds. How stupid are those that say to vote yes. This is just sick and wrong to give the semi-rich another tax break. Keep all of the money in the public school and let the people that want to send their kids to a private school get a second job like I did for 13 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com